Let's just cut to the chase - the problem that Republicans have with cities is that black, blrown and LGBT people live there and that they tend to be politically liberal.
Given that at least five Somalis have been convicted of fraud in federal child nutrition programs and that the fraud may total anywhere from 1 to 9 billion dollars [$250,000,000 already] President Trump's belief in Minnesota corruption seems rather justified.
In refusing to honor ICE detainers, the Minneapolis [or Minnesota] courts are really the ones going full Confederacy in trying to nullify federal law. Had ICE been allowed/assisted in picking up prisoners in prisons, jails, and courthouses [like, e.g. Texas or Florida] these raids would not have been necessary and likely there would have been no riots.
Throwing ice balls and bottles of frozen water at CPB or ICE officers carrying out an arrest isn't peaceful protest, it's assault. The governor, mayor, and attorney general are all under investigation and seem to be doing nothing to calm matters or their electorate.
BTW, the Boston fiasco in 1775 was the result of the crown trying to assert royal authority with insufficient resources [the story of the whole Revolutionary War]. The Federal Govt has overwhelming force, if necessary.
I've never set foot in Minnesota, but could any entities there be trying to provoke just that? Are there any prisons in rural areas there? There have been ICE raids on farms in Ca, and Ga.
As a true independent who has not voted for either a GOP or Dem President this century, I am (trying to) mostly stay out of what I see as a very serious growing conflict, but two things come to mind here. One is that anti urban sentiment or, more accurately, distrust and dislike of large urban centers (but not so much of smaller cities and towns) has been a huge current within the United States from the very biggening, taking various forms over time.
Secundly is that Trump did promise mass deportation of migrants lacking legal status, not limmited to those with records or anything else. Most Republicans and a huge portion of independents support this strongly while most Democrats are far more then just apalled.
Trump has said repeatedly that ICE was goimg to go after the worst of the worst. While to him that probably means people like Renee Good and Alex Pretti, most people thought that meant violent criminals.
I don't think the majority of Americans are in favor of going after immigrants who have been here a long time, work, have spouses and children who are US citizens and obey the law. I would venture to guess that a majority would be in favor of giving these people path to citizenship or some other form of permanent legal status.
And it's clear that a majoirty of Americans disapprove of the way that the Trump Administration is carrying out their mass deportations.
Note: please edit out your last rhetorical question/statement to me as it is NOT about me and is slanderous! You have NO RIGHT to falsely imply and zero basses to beleave that I think killing nonnviolent protestors is "making life better" (it is of course not), as I never said any such thing!
Thank you. And no I certianly do not support it!. But this reminds me of why I had mostly quite commenting about immigration or other highly controversial issues online: namely that in the US at preasent people seem to have sadly mostly stopped debating about such issues altogather but still often fight about them while talking past each other, often not understsnding what the other person actually meant. Sadly we seem to be at war in this country, even if it is still a mostly cold civil war for now. 🙏
No, he said that but also promised mass deportation and has said he would go after unlawful immigrants in general. But Noem and others are emphasising such language about criminality (a huge tactical mistake I beleave) as much of the media has been attributing to them, not always accuritely especially in regards to Trump and Miller. And yes most Americans including myself think ICE is acting unlawfully in many casses.
However outside of the left, that is largely do to their frequent profiling, harrassing and brutality, not simply for arresting and deporting those without a record. Unlawful entry is a crime.
The problem is it is not realistic to do so at scale without rights violations. That is why we do need some legelization (IMHO) but also a secure border. Biden should never have opened the floodgates as he did. Otherwise we don't have a country.
Well, Trump did give us a secure border for the first time in a long time but ICE and Border Patrol are also acting unlawfully in many casses under Trump's orders and that needs to change. At the same we cannot sustainabpy have defacto unlimmited asylum claims as the left came to largely insist on. And merely arresting and deporting those without legal status but no record is not unlawful and is suported by most Republicans and a large portion of independents, if not necessarraly by a majority of US voters as a whole. But in truth Trump also has little to no reason to care what most non supporters think at this point.
I will add that weather both Ms Good (and now Mr Pretti) were actually non violent is highly disputed, based on video evidence. It is not disputed on the left, but I am not on the left (nor on the right). That does not make me a conservative either however nor a Trump supporter. My views are mixed and nuanced, not really close to either major US political party at this point.
But finally sometimes 5 year olds have to be detained temporarily (only for their own safety) if their parents are, if no one is avalable to take the kid. That is not what appears to have happened in the recent high profile case however and I do not condone using young children to try to lure their parents out.
The difference is that ICE has been going after US citizens, not just undocumented immigrants. For example, last week, ICE agents kicked down the front door and broke into the home of an Asian man who has been a US citizen for 25 years. He offered to show the ICE officers his passport, but the ICE officers didn’t even listen to him, and they dragged him out of the house in subzero temperatures without a shirt one, and drove him around for an hour before returning him home. https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/1qh5e6m/ice_just_being_pure_evil/ For another example, ICE abducted a 17-year-old Target employee (also a US citizen), beat him up in their van, and dumped him in a parking lot a few miles away: https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/1qauntn/ice_kidnap_17yearold_us_citizen_working_at_target/ And a woman of Somali heritage, who was born in the US, and has never even been to Somalia, was assaulted by ICE agents and detained for two days despite showing them her passport: https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/st-paul-woman-u-citizen-170000038.html And there are countless other similar stories that I’ve heard from my friends in Minneapolis of ICE agents harassing or abducting US citizens who were just going about their day. A lot of my black and Latino friends in Minneapolis (who again, are US citizens) are afraid to even leave the house because they’re worried that ICE will abduct them. At this point, things are going way beyond deporting undocumented immigrants, and ICE’s campaign in Minnesota has been harassing anyone who isn’t white.
I agree with everything you said but would add that undocumented immigrants deserve humane treatment too, even if they are going to be deported. Being an undocumented immigrant is a civil offense, not a criminal one, and there is no reason why ICE needs a budget bigger than the military of almost every other country on earth. Well, actually, there is a reason - the primary purpose of ICE is not to remove undocumented immigrants but to act as Trump's Gestapo.
I definitely agree, and the abuses of undocumented immigrants and the horrible conditions of the detention centers deserve a lot more media attention and criticism. I was just making the point that even independents or Republicans who don't care about the well-being of undocumented immigrants at all, should still be appalled by ICE's actions.
I am one of those independents who is appalled by many ICE and CBP tacticks even while supporting some of Trumps actions on immigration and being fairly conservative on immigration policy in general (I lean socially liberal and economically left of center). Those like me are basically politically homeless at this point.
It is true that it is a civil offence to be unlawfully present, however illegal entry is a misdomenor, while unlawful re-entry (such as after deportation) is a felony. Everyone should be treated with dignity and respect for human rights which is clearly not what is happening in many cases.
Yet the left is often not being truthful (even when they are attempting to be honest) about what is going either from my perspective. Central and South Americans really should be considered to qualify as refugees too, yet neither major US partyhas allowed that (depite Dems so often empty claims to care.
We finally do have a mostly secure border (that means no unlimmited asylum claims and yes barriors and enforcement) but also a horible and growing police state. The former does not need to include the latter! We should give refugee status for large numbers from Latin America because large numbers are eligible under any resonable interpretation of the law, and also some sort of legalization program for many now here but not more (in the long term less) immigration overall).
Finally the idea of "jobs Americans won't do" is also mostly a myth and to the extent it is true, it is largely do to policy choises we have made and it is something that can change over time.
Also, Kristi Noem said that people need to carry proof of US citizenship with them at all times or they could be detained and deported by ICE. However, the problem is that most forms of ID, just as a driver’s license or a Real ID, and only a US passport or a birth certificate counts as a valid proof of citizenship by ICE’s rules. Meanwhile, about 50% of US-born citizens don’t even have a passport, and very people carry their passport with them at all times. And if someone loses their passport, it takes several weeks, if not months, to get a new one. So lots of black and Latino people, who have never even been outside of the US, are afraid of ICE for a very legitimate reason.
Yes, ugh! Noem can be awful. Some of what she seems to be calling for and much of what is happening under her and others in this adminestration is completely unconstitutional as well as just plain wrong. I am very sorry to hear what you and your friends are going through. And I say that also beleaving that much of how the left sees this is also deeply distorted even if coming from a good place (which I know it often but not always is). I am close to people from across the political spectrum I should add.
As a former Democrat now true independent politcally I am frankly appalled by both major US parties at this point. While I do not support much of the Dem position on immigration (I beleave we should have both a secure border and less immigration, and mostly support Trump's actual border policy/asylum changes while recognozing that they are far from ideal) I also see Trump's "mass deportation" program as well as orders on birthright citizenship among other things as either actual or potential looming disasters and in the case of trying to end birthright citizenship in particular, as utterly morally wrong and evil.
IMHO we do need legalization for many already here but also a serious reduction (not a full end) of sanctuary policies and a secure border as Trump has delivered for the first time, -without all this other crap!
I wish we could discuse and debate immigration policy in a respectful matter but at this point people are living in differant worlds regarding immigration (as on so many other things these days), not just politically but also practically in their own lives which is where so much of this conflict originates from.
Let's just cut to the chase - the problem that Republicans have with cities is that black, blrown and LGBT people live there and that they tend to be politically liberal.
Given that at least five Somalis have been convicted of fraud in federal child nutrition programs and that the fraud may total anywhere from 1 to 9 billion dollars [$250,000,000 already] President Trump's belief in Minnesota corruption seems rather justified.
In refusing to honor ICE detainers, the Minneapolis [or Minnesota] courts are really the ones going full Confederacy in trying to nullify federal law. Had ICE been allowed/assisted in picking up prisoners in prisons, jails, and courthouses [like, e.g. Texas or Florida] these raids would not have been necessary and likely there would have been no riots.
Throwing ice balls and bottles of frozen water at CPB or ICE officers carrying out an arrest isn't peaceful protest, it's assault. The governor, mayor, and attorney general are all under investigation and seem to be doing nothing to calm matters or their electorate.
BTW, the Boston fiasco in 1775 was the result of the crown trying to assert royal authority with insufficient resources [the story of the whole Revolutionary War]. The Federal Govt has overwhelming force, if necessary.
I've never set foot in Minnesota, but could any entities there be trying to provoke just that? Are there any prisons in rural areas there? There have been ICE raids on farms in Ca, and Ga.
As a true independent who has not voted for either a GOP or Dem President this century, I am (trying to) mostly stay out of what I see as a very serious growing conflict, but two things come to mind here. One is that anti urban sentiment or, more accurately, distrust and dislike of large urban centers (but not so much of smaller cities and towns) has been a huge current within the United States from the very biggening, taking various forms over time.
Secundly is that Trump did promise mass deportation of migrants lacking legal status, not limmited to those with records or anything else. Most Republicans and a huge portion of independents support this strongly while most Democrats are far more then just apalled.
Trump has said repeatedly that ICE was goimg to go after the worst of the worst. While to him that probably means people like Renee Good and Alex Pretti, most people thought that meant violent criminals.
I don't think the majority of Americans are in favor of going after immigrants who have been here a long time, work, have spouses and children who are US citizens and obey the law. I would venture to guess that a majority would be in favor of giving these people path to citizenship or some other form of permanent legal status.
And it's clear that a majoirty of Americans disapprove of the way that the Trump Administration is carrying out their mass deportations.
Note: please edit out your last rhetorical question/statement to me as it is NOT about me and is slanderous! You have NO RIGHT to falsely imply and zero basses to beleave that I think killing nonnviolent protestors is "making life better" (it is of course not), as I never said any such thing!
I deleted this at your request. I think it’s clear you are not supporting killing nonviolent protestors.
Thank you. And no I certianly do not support it!. But this reminds me of why I had mostly quite commenting about immigration or other highly controversial issues online: namely that in the US at preasent people seem to have sadly mostly stopped debating about such issues altogather but still often fight about them while talking past each other, often not understsnding what the other person actually meant. Sadly we seem to be at war in this country, even if it is still a mostly cold civil war for now. 🙏
No, he said that but also promised mass deportation and has said he would go after unlawful immigrants in general. But Noem and others are emphasising such language about criminality (a huge tactical mistake I beleave) as much of the media has been attributing to them, not always accuritely especially in regards to Trump and Miller. And yes most Americans including myself think ICE is acting unlawfully in many casses.
However outside of the left, that is largely do to their frequent profiling, harrassing and brutality, not simply for arresting and deporting those without a record. Unlawful entry is a crime.
The problem is it is not realistic to do so at scale without rights violations. That is why we do need some legelization (IMHO) but also a secure border. Biden should never have opened the floodgates as he did. Otherwise we don't have a country.
Well, Trump did give us a secure border for the first time in a long time but ICE and Border Patrol are also acting unlawfully in many casses under Trump's orders and that needs to change. At the same we cannot sustainabpy have defacto unlimmited asylum claims as the left came to largely insist on. And merely arresting and deporting those without legal status but no record is not unlawful and is suported by most Republicans and a large portion of independents, if not necessarraly by a majority of US voters as a whole. But in truth Trump also has little to no reason to care what most non supporters think at this point.
I will add that weather both Ms Good (and now Mr Pretti) were actually non violent is highly disputed, based on video evidence. It is not disputed on the left, but I am not on the left (nor on the right). That does not make me a conservative either however nor a Trump supporter. My views are mixed and nuanced, not really close to either major US political party at this point.
But finally sometimes 5 year olds have to be detained temporarily (only for their own safety) if their parents are, if no one is avalable to take the kid. That is not what appears to have happened in the recent high profile case however and I do not condone using young children to try to lure their parents out.
The difference is that ICE has been going after US citizens, not just undocumented immigrants. For example, last week, ICE agents kicked down the front door and broke into the home of an Asian man who has been a US citizen for 25 years. He offered to show the ICE officers his passport, but the ICE officers didn’t even listen to him, and they dragged him out of the house in subzero temperatures without a shirt one, and drove him around for an hour before returning him home. https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/1qh5e6m/ice_just_being_pure_evil/ For another example, ICE abducted a 17-year-old Target employee (also a US citizen), beat him up in their van, and dumped him in a parking lot a few miles away: https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/1qauntn/ice_kidnap_17yearold_us_citizen_working_at_target/ And a woman of Somali heritage, who was born in the US, and has never even been to Somalia, was assaulted by ICE agents and detained for two days despite showing them her passport: https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/st-paul-woman-u-citizen-170000038.html And there are countless other similar stories that I’ve heard from my friends in Minneapolis of ICE agents harassing or abducting US citizens who were just going about their day. A lot of my black and Latino friends in Minneapolis (who again, are US citizens) are afraid to even leave the house because they’re worried that ICE will abduct them. At this point, things are going way beyond deporting undocumented immigrants, and ICE’s campaign in Minnesota has been harassing anyone who isn’t white.
I agree with everything you said but would add that undocumented immigrants deserve humane treatment too, even if they are going to be deported. Being an undocumented immigrant is a civil offense, not a criminal one, and there is no reason why ICE needs a budget bigger than the military of almost every other country on earth. Well, actually, there is a reason - the primary purpose of ICE is not to remove undocumented immigrants but to act as Trump's Gestapo.
I definitely agree, and the abuses of undocumented immigrants and the horrible conditions of the detention centers deserve a lot more media attention and criticism. I was just making the point that even independents or Republicans who don't care about the well-being of undocumented immigrants at all, should still be appalled by ICE's actions.
I am one of those independents who is appalled by many ICE and CBP tacticks even while supporting some of Trumps actions on immigration and being fairly conservative on immigration policy in general (I lean socially liberal and economically left of center). Those like me are basically politically homeless at this point.
It is true that it is a civil offence to be unlawfully present, however illegal entry is a misdomenor, while unlawful re-entry (such as after deportation) is a felony. Everyone should be treated with dignity and respect for human rights which is clearly not what is happening in many cases.
Yet the left is often not being truthful (even when they are attempting to be honest) about what is going either from my perspective. Central and South Americans really should be considered to qualify as refugees too, yet neither major US partyhas allowed that (depite Dems so often empty claims to care.
We finally do have a mostly secure border (that means no unlimmited asylum claims and yes barriors and enforcement) but also a horible and growing police state. The former does not need to include the latter! We should give refugee status for large numbers from Latin America because large numbers are eligible under any resonable interpretation of the law, and also some sort of legalization program for many now here but not more (in the long term less) immigration overall).
Finally the idea of "jobs Americans won't do" is also mostly a myth and to the extent it is true, it is largely do to policy choises we have made and it is something that can change over time.
Unlikely. But I can still dream.
Also, Kristi Noem said that people need to carry proof of US citizenship with them at all times or they could be detained and deported by ICE. However, the problem is that most forms of ID, just as a driver’s license or a Real ID, and only a US passport or a birth certificate counts as a valid proof of citizenship by ICE’s rules. Meanwhile, about 50% of US-born citizens don’t even have a passport, and very people carry their passport with them at all times. And if someone loses their passport, it takes several weeks, if not months, to get a new one. So lots of black and Latino people, who have never even been outside of the US, are afraid of ICE for a very legitimate reason.
Yes, ugh! Noem can be awful. Some of what she seems to be calling for and much of what is happening under her and others in this adminestration is completely unconstitutional as well as just plain wrong. I am very sorry to hear what you and your friends are going through. And I say that also beleaving that much of how the left sees this is also deeply distorted even if coming from a good place (which I know it often but not always is). I am close to people from across the political spectrum I should add.
As a former Democrat now true independent politcally I am frankly appalled by both major US parties at this point. While I do not support much of the Dem position on immigration (I beleave we should have both a secure border and less immigration, and mostly support Trump's actual border policy/asylum changes while recognozing that they are far from ideal) I also see Trump's "mass deportation" program as well as orders on birthright citizenship among other things as either actual or potential looming disasters and in the case of trying to end birthright citizenship in particular, as utterly morally wrong and evil.
IMHO we do need legalization for many already here but also a serious reduction (not a full end) of sanctuary policies and a secure border as Trump has delivered for the first time, -without all this other crap!
I wish we could discuse and debate immigration policy in a respectful matter but at this point people are living in differant worlds regarding immigration (as on so many other things these days), not just politically but also practically in their own lives which is where so much of this conflict originates from.