Great points here. I'm not a fan or follower of the punk/indie rock scene, but I'm familiar enough to recognize the bands listed. And they accomplished their success in a very Midwestern way.
Fair assessment. "Coasts" is a broad generalization. But so is "Midwest". I think you're reading too much into the framing.
Look, in Kanye's case he moved from the third largest city in the nation to the second largest. Couldn't -- or shouldn't -- a city like Chicago have the chops to establish a top-notch music business scene? Agreed, moving to a smaller city than Chicago could be a slight cause for concern. But, as I noted in the piece, Atlanta developed a thriving R&B/hip-hop scene in the '90s/'00s when talent felt frozen from the NY/LA pipeline. And despite its rapid growth over the last 40 years, Atlanta is still a smaller metro than Chicago.
In Eminem's case he left Detroit, a city that ceded its leadership in R&B 50 years ago when Motown left for LA. In fact, mid-century Chicago and Detroit both had a chance to dominate the Black music business industry, but didn't. Either could've been the equivalent of Nashville in country music, or modern-day Atlanta in R&B/hip-hop.
David, thanks for your thoughtful comments. We've shared a lot of the same opinions over the years. I'll be 60 myself later this year and lived my entire life in the Midwest as well. But my experience has not been the same as yours.
Of course, the Midwest is not a monolith. And I certainly have come across many people, and places, that want change - NOW. There most certainly is a wealth of talent and ambition in the region. Maybe my position is limited to my own experiences. But much of what you describe below proves my point.
Slowly dying small towns (and big cities) have been wanting change for decades. But many have been stuck in the mindset of bringing manufacturing jobs back, instead of creating an entirely new economy. I don't think it's surprising that the top two execs at Microsoft have roots in Wisconsin; the entire West Coast's modern tech economy was largely built by people with Midwestern roots.
But why didn't Microsoft get its start in Wisconsin? Why did Oprah decide after decades in Chicago that she had to leave for the West Coast to start her OWN Network? Ted Turner kept CNN in Atlanta.
I don't view this as a loser's mentality, either. But I'll have to pick this up later.
Picking up on this. There have been many born-and-raised Midwesterners who could've ushered in the region's transition from a world-leading manufacturing based economy to a world-leading... something else. Maybe tech. Maybe education. Maybe transportation. I think your work in transforming brownfield into development sites is something this region's could dominate globally. Taken together the 8 states at the core of the Midwest (OH, IN, MI, IL, WI, MN, IA, MO) would be the 3rd or 4th largest economy in the world by GDP. Bigger than Japan, the UK, India. But the region still doesn't perform at a high level IMO, and I wonder why.
“ Instead of moving to the coasts or waiting on offers from coastal record companies, the Southern hip-hop community created its own hip-hop ecosystem. That’s something the Midwest has yet to do on a national scale.”
On a national scale in hip hop, but not in music more generally. The Midwest built an ecosystem for punk and indie rock that thrived for decades. Bands like Husker Du, Screeching Weasel, Uncle Tupelo, Liz Phair, Guided by Voices, the White Stripes, and the Get Up Kids (and plenty of others) became nationally famous without leaving the Midwest. There were/are studios, record labels, and concert halls to support them. And that infrastructure wasn’t just local; it drew national acts as well. Nirvana recorded their two major label studio albums in Wisconsin and Minnesota. And you can’t say it’s a triumph of low expectations, either. Artists like Paul Westerberg and Jeff Tweedy grew considerably in both skill and ambition over their careers. It’s a really impressive scene that arguably doesn’t have an analog in any other region. (Seattle, Boston, a couple other individual cities, yeah, but region-wide?)
This happened because indie leveraged one of the Midwest’s greatest assets: concentrations of educated, creative young people; specifically, college town, and especially big colleges in large-ish cities (Wisconsin, Minnesota, Ohio State, the various Chicago schools). But it also leveraged the anti-striver mindset. Indie never wanted to be world-conquering. They just wanted to do things their way, and they did so well enough to attract national attention organically. With any of those bands, there’s some question about how “slacker” they truly were, but the point is that, even if they were utter careerists like Billy Corgan, they at least went along with the midwestern mentality publicly.
The question, then, is how to apply that lesson to other fields. There’s at least one example that comes quickly to mind, which is the software company Basecamp/37 Signals, which has been successful enough to allow its founders a second career writing books arguing against 80 hour work weeks. Probably not coincidentally, of Chicago origin.
It’s also probably worth asking whether the “excellence” of the sort displayed by arena rock bands and VC-funded startups (i.e., competitive domination and attendant publicity) is actually good for society. It seems to me that, while Mark Zuckerberg might have achieved more than 37 Signals’ founders, that success hasn’t come without some serious negative externalities. Longtime Chicagoan Steve Albini (RIP) would have something to say about that. Come to think of it, Albini’s approach (taking a light touch while having high standards) wouldn’t be a bad model for the Midwest.
My problem with this sort of commentary is always "the coasts". Kanye didn't move to Philadelphia or Irvine or Seattle. Media talent moves to L.A. or New York. Tech talent moves to San Francisco. That's it. Those three places.
I agree that Midwestern cities should aspire to be great enough that people don't feel the need to move to L.A. to keep growing their entertainment career. But what *region* doesn't have the same issue? If Kanye moved to Phoenix or Dallas or Portland or Boston to take the next step in his career it would definitely be a wake up call. But I don't think it's helpful to compare the center of the country to the two biggest U.S. cities and call them "the Coasts". Tampa is on the coast.
How much of this is less coasts vs midwest, than core vs periphery, in the old world systems theory sense espoused in classic sociology? I say this because I live in Northern New England, and so much of the typology you've laid out feels like it applies here as well, with the similar histories as exploited regions by the wall st finance class (rustication-based tourism, along with natural resources extraction here, vs heavy industry in the midwest). These are both exploited places with something of a long-term resentment hangover toward the country's power centers and I think that plays into the economic moribundity they share and the related reluctance to go all-in on the innovation economy.
I've continued to ponder this article over the past few days. You made a lot of assertions in your post: 1) The region is inherently risk-adverse. 2) It is a region that accepts the status quo. 3) Ambitious Midwesterners must leave for the coasts if they want to succeed. 4) Outsiders view its culture as incompatible with excellence. 5) Suppressive of the pursuit of excellence. 6) Disdain for elite strivers. 7) Region overlooked by the ambitious. 8) Mediocre, benign acceptance, and being “good enough” are built into the DNA of the Midwest.
I'm forced to admit there could be truth in all of these. But my first point would be the Midwest is regional diverse. I think these characteristics apply more to small towns than the metro areas, and there is also a significant difference between the north woods (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota) portion as well as the Great Lakes metros versus other the vast farmland, Great Plains, and Appalachian portions of the Midwest. For example, I’ve long argued with friends that the "belt" extending from Chicago, through Milwaukee, Madison, and Rochester to Minneapolis St Paul is one of the great prosperity and innovation belts in North America, if not the world. And I mean present day, not some lost Midwest glory days decades ago. Any useful narrative about the Midwest should acknowledge this reality.
What I have found most intriguing in my 40+ years as an adult in the Midwest (primarily in Milwaukee) is we tend to take a unique approach to every type of project in the Midwest,, and once you gain a deeper knowledge and appreciation of these approaches, you may conclude that they are actually superior to those being used by the coastal regionss.
One of the original inspirations for this idea was the Green Bay Packers, a sport franchise that is not just unique nationally among US professional sports franchises (with public ownership), but unique globally in the level of success it has achieved for a team located in a community of 100,000 residents. The team has partnered with Microsoft in creating an innovation district linked to the stadium district. I thought that the plan for this partnership was absurd when I first heard about it. But being a Midwest initiative, it actually seems to be working. The Milwaukee Bucks are another local example. Where else but in the Midwest would a former owner (Herb Kohl) contribute $100 million to the construction of an arena for a team he sold. Urbanists love to cite how arenas and stadium districts are aways a con job, but the thoughtful manner in which the six block stadium district is developing makes me expect that this stadium district will end up exceeding its rosiest promises when complete., and be a Midwest exception to the rule. When LA won their championship in 2020, it was the Milwaukee Bucks that led the largest Black Lives Matter march organized by any professional sports team after the murder of George Floyd. and later that year, it was the Milwaukee Bucks that were the first professional sports team to go on strike after Jacob Blake was shot in Kenosha. The Lakers may have won the NBA Championship, but it was the Milwaukee Bucks among all professional sports teams that was recognized as the team of the year in 2020 by Sports Illustrated. Giannis may be Greek, but he has Midwest values (I've run into him at my local Panera, where not a single customer bothered him for autographs).
Another sports example would be 2003-2005 when the Milwaukee area produced both the men’s and women’s world champions in gymnastics (Paul Hamm 2003, Chelie Memmel 2005). That’s absurd given that gymnastics is not really a legacy sport in the Milwaukee area, and considering the 2 billion population of European and Asian countries that have elite programs in gymnastics. But there is no limit on ambition or excellence in the Midwest.
I’ve provided examples in sports, could I provide literally hundreds of examples of excellence in industry, environmental fields, architecture, and other fields in the Midwest that don’t seem to fit with the standard models or narratives of excellence. but which (in my opinion) are often superior to any similar examples in supposed "elite" coastal cities.
I’m inclined to argue that there is no cultural problem in the Midwest in terms of ambition of excellence. The issue is that the focus in the Midwest on things that matter more to the future of America than what Coastal strivers seem focused on (i..e, fame, wealth, and power). Tim Walz is “Exhibit A” of Midwest values. Is it possible for someone with the “coastal elite” mindset to even comprehend that the highest “ambition” for an American might be to be a high school teacher that could positively impact the lives of thousands of young people over a 30-year career. Ambition is only meaningful (from my Midwest values framework) if it’s rooted in community and improving the lives of others.
A final comment, is that I question how many people are in professions where their prospects are really limited by a Midwestern. Perhaps hip hop artists, professional actors, investment bankers, and certain tech professionals. But my guess would be that 90-95% of elite strivers can achieve unlimited success in the Midwest if their goal is something other than wealth, fame, or power.
Midwest College towns offer the one kernel of local success. If Midwesterners can simply allow Ann Arbor, Champaign, Madison, and Columbus to take full advantage of their assets, they could achieve something.
I have lived in the Midwest my entire life (60+ years) and never once encountered the negative attitude towards striving or excellence that you describe. I also have worked with dozens of communities in the Midwest and rarely if ever encountered a desire for things to stay the same. In fact, I would argue that both the industrial centers (like Milwaukee, where I live) that were devastated by deindustrialization and the slowly dying small towns that I have worked with in the Midwest have profound recognition of the need for change. This is the least complacent region in my experience.
I have also found no shortage of ambition in my corner of the Midwest. I could cite dozens of compelling examples just from my clients, family, and friends. Is it surprising that the two top executives at the world's most valuable technology company (Microsoft) both have roots in Wisconsin? Or that the head of the world's leading talent agency (CAA) is my classmate and former next-door neighbor. Oprah went to my high school as well. I don't buy the argument that these people moved away because the Midwest culture didn't support their ambition. I'd argue that a core reason for their success is their Midwestern attitude and grounded pragmatism. They may have moved to other cities where opportunities matched their talent, but I don't believe they moved to escape some negative Midwestern "loser" mentality.
I've been intrigued by the extent to which successful leaders of industrial companies in southeast Wisconsin have expanded into other spheres. Wisconsin is arguably (and improbably) the leading state for elite golf venues in the US - an outcome attributable to a plumbing fixture manufacturer (Kohler) deciding that building and operating elite golf courses would aid their identification as a lifestyle brand. Another great example is Husco International, an auto supplier based in the Milwaukee area owned by an Hispanic entrepreneur who over the past 7 years has committed >$150 million to opening 3 charter schools that will eventually serve 3,400 students. My working theory is that successful manufacturers in the Midwest in the era of globalization, have already mastered complex environmental, labor, supply chain challenges in multiple countries. Tackling the problems such as educating disadvantaged children from inner city neighborhoods is a less challenging problem (at least with the right resources).
Two years ago, a Milwaukee developer completed what was at the time the world's tallest mass timber tower (the 25-story Ascent tower). This will be surpassed by the 32-story "The Edison" building scheduled to break ground in October 2024, which in turn may be surpassed by a 55-story mass timber tower proposed by the same developer for another site on the Milwaukee River. Ambition is not lacking in the Midwest, and is not limited to a regional or even national context.
Great points here. I'm not a fan or follower of the punk/indie rock scene, but I'm familiar enough to recognize the bands listed. And they accomplished their success in a very Midwestern way.
Fair assessment. "Coasts" is a broad generalization. But so is "Midwest". I think you're reading too much into the framing.
Look, in Kanye's case he moved from the third largest city in the nation to the second largest. Couldn't -- or shouldn't -- a city like Chicago have the chops to establish a top-notch music business scene? Agreed, moving to a smaller city than Chicago could be a slight cause for concern. But, as I noted in the piece, Atlanta developed a thriving R&B/hip-hop scene in the '90s/'00s when talent felt frozen from the NY/LA pipeline. And despite its rapid growth over the last 40 years, Atlanta is still a smaller metro than Chicago.
In Eminem's case he left Detroit, a city that ceded its leadership in R&B 50 years ago when Motown left for LA. In fact, mid-century Chicago and Detroit both had a chance to dominate the Black music business industry, but didn't. Either could've been the equivalent of Nashville in country music, or modern-day Atlanta in R&B/hip-hop.
David, thanks for your thoughtful comments. We've shared a lot of the same opinions over the years. I'll be 60 myself later this year and lived my entire life in the Midwest as well. But my experience has not been the same as yours.
Of course, the Midwest is not a monolith. And I certainly have come across many people, and places, that want change - NOW. There most certainly is a wealth of talent and ambition in the region. Maybe my position is limited to my own experiences. But much of what you describe below proves my point.
Slowly dying small towns (and big cities) have been wanting change for decades. But many have been stuck in the mindset of bringing manufacturing jobs back, instead of creating an entirely new economy. I don't think it's surprising that the top two execs at Microsoft have roots in Wisconsin; the entire West Coast's modern tech economy was largely built by people with Midwestern roots.
But why didn't Microsoft get its start in Wisconsin? Why did Oprah decide after decades in Chicago that she had to leave for the West Coast to start her OWN Network? Ted Turner kept CNN in Atlanta.
I don't view this as a loser's mentality, either. But I'll have to pick this up later.
Picking up on this. There have been many born-and-raised Midwesterners who could've ushered in the region's transition from a world-leading manufacturing based economy to a world-leading... something else. Maybe tech. Maybe education. Maybe transportation. I think your work in transforming brownfield into development sites is something this region's could dominate globally. Taken together the 8 states at the core of the Midwest (OH, IN, MI, IL, WI, MN, IA, MO) would be the 3rd or 4th largest economy in the world by GDP. Bigger than Japan, the UK, India. But the region still doesn't perform at a high level IMO, and I wonder why.
“ Instead of moving to the coasts or waiting on offers from coastal record companies, the Southern hip-hop community created its own hip-hop ecosystem. That’s something the Midwest has yet to do on a national scale.”
On a national scale in hip hop, but not in music more generally. The Midwest built an ecosystem for punk and indie rock that thrived for decades. Bands like Husker Du, Screeching Weasel, Uncle Tupelo, Liz Phair, Guided by Voices, the White Stripes, and the Get Up Kids (and plenty of others) became nationally famous without leaving the Midwest. There were/are studios, record labels, and concert halls to support them. And that infrastructure wasn’t just local; it drew national acts as well. Nirvana recorded their two major label studio albums in Wisconsin and Minnesota. And you can’t say it’s a triumph of low expectations, either. Artists like Paul Westerberg and Jeff Tweedy grew considerably in both skill and ambition over their careers. It’s a really impressive scene that arguably doesn’t have an analog in any other region. (Seattle, Boston, a couple other individual cities, yeah, but region-wide?)
This happened because indie leveraged one of the Midwest’s greatest assets: concentrations of educated, creative young people; specifically, college town, and especially big colleges in large-ish cities (Wisconsin, Minnesota, Ohio State, the various Chicago schools). But it also leveraged the anti-striver mindset. Indie never wanted to be world-conquering. They just wanted to do things their way, and they did so well enough to attract national attention organically. With any of those bands, there’s some question about how “slacker” they truly were, but the point is that, even if they were utter careerists like Billy Corgan, they at least went along with the midwestern mentality publicly.
The question, then, is how to apply that lesson to other fields. There’s at least one example that comes quickly to mind, which is the software company Basecamp/37 Signals, which has been successful enough to allow its founders a second career writing books arguing against 80 hour work weeks. Probably not coincidentally, of Chicago origin.
It’s also probably worth asking whether the “excellence” of the sort displayed by arena rock bands and VC-funded startups (i.e., competitive domination and attendant publicity) is actually good for society. It seems to me that, while Mark Zuckerberg might have achieved more than 37 Signals’ founders, that success hasn’t come without some serious negative externalities. Longtime Chicagoan Steve Albini (RIP) would have something to say about that. Come to think of it, Albini’s approach (taking a light touch while having high standards) wouldn’t be a bad model for the Midwest.
My problem with this sort of commentary is always "the coasts". Kanye didn't move to Philadelphia or Irvine or Seattle. Media talent moves to L.A. or New York. Tech talent moves to San Francisco. That's it. Those three places.
I agree that Midwestern cities should aspire to be great enough that people don't feel the need to move to L.A. to keep growing their entertainment career. But what *region* doesn't have the same issue? If Kanye moved to Phoenix or Dallas or Portland or Boston to take the next step in his career it would definitely be a wake up call. But I don't think it's helpful to compare the center of the country to the two biggest U.S. cities and call them "the Coasts". Tampa is on the coast.
How much of this is less coasts vs midwest, than core vs periphery, in the old world systems theory sense espoused in classic sociology? I say this because I live in Northern New England, and so much of the typology you've laid out feels like it applies here as well, with the similar histories as exploited regions by the wall st finance class (rustication-based tourism, along with natural resources extraction here, vs heavy industry in the midwest). These are both exploited places with something of a long-term resentment hangover toward the country's power centers and I think that plays into the economic moribundity they share and the related reluctance to go all-in on the innovation economy.
“the Ohio mentality”
Hi Pete:
I've continued to ponder this article over the past few days. You made a lot of assertions in your post: 1) The region is inherently risk-adverse. 2) It is a region that accepts the status quo. 3) Ambitious Midwesterners must leave for the coasts if they want to succeed. 4) Outsiders view its culture as incompatible with excellence. 5) Suppressive of the pursuit of excellence. 6) Disdain for elite strivers. 7) Region overlooked by the ambitious. 8) Mediocre, benign acceptance, and being “good enough” are built into the DNA of the Midwest.
I'm forced to admit there could be truth in all of these. But my first point would be the Midwest is regional diverse. I think these characteristics apply more to small towns than the metro areas, and there is also a significant difference between the north woods (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota) portion as well as the Great Lakes metros versus other the vast farmland, Great Plains, and Appalachian portions of the Midwest. For example, I’ve long argued with friends that the "belt" extending from Chicago, through Milwaukee, Madison, and Rochester to Minneapolis St Paul is one of the great prosperity and innovation belts in North America, if not the world. And I mean present day, not some lost Midwest glory days decades ago. Any useful narrative about the Midwest should acknowledge this reality.
What I have found most intriguing in my 40+ years as an adult in the Midwest (primarily in Milwaukee) is we tend to take a unique approach to every type of project in the Midwest,, and once you gain a deeper knowledge and appreciation of these approaches, you may conclude that they are actually superior to those being used by the coastal regionss.
One of the original inspirations for this idea was the Green Bay Packers, a sport franchise that is not just unique nationally among US professional sports franchises (with public ownership), but unique globally in the level of success it has achieved for a team located in a community of 100,000 residents. The team has partnered with Microsoft in creating an innovation district linked to the stadium district. I thought that the plan for this partnership was absurd when I first heard about it. But being a Midwest initiative, it actually seems to be working. The Milwaukee Bucks are another local example. Where else but in the Midwest would a former owner (Herb Kohl) contribute $100 million to the construction of an arena for a team he sold. Urbanists love to cite how arenas and stadium districts are aways a con job, but the thoughtful manner in which the six block stadium district is developing makes me expect that this stadium district will end up exceeding its rosiest promises when complete., and be a Midwest exception to the rule. When LA won their championship in 2020, it was the Milwaukee Bucks that led the largest Black Lives Matter march organized by any professional sports team after the murder of George Floyd. and later that year, it was the Milwaukee Bucks that were the first professional sports team to go on strike after Jacob Blake was shot in Kenosha. The Lakers may have won the NBA Championship, but it was the Milwaukee Bucks among all professional sports teams that was recognized as the team of the year in 2020 by Sports Illustrated. Giannis may be Greek, but he has Midwest values (I've run into him at my local Panera, where not a single customer bothered him for autographs).
Another sports example would be 2003-2005 when the Milwaukee area produced both the men’s and women’s world champions in gymnastics (Paul Hamm 2003, Chelie Memmel 2005). That’s absurd given that gymnastics is not really a legacy sport in the Milwaukee area, and considering the 2 billion population of European and Asian countries that have elite programs in gymnastics. But there is no limit on ambition or excellence in the Midwest.
I’ve provided examples in sports, could I provide literally hundreds of examples of excellence in industry, environmental fields, architecture, and other fields in the Midwest that don’t seem to fit with the standard models or narratives of excellence. but which (in my opinion) are often superior to any similar examples in supposed "elite" coastal cities.
I’m inclined to argue that there is no cultural problem in the Midwest in terms of ambition of excellence. The issue is that the focus in the Midwest on things that matter more to the future of America than what Coastal strivers seem focused on (i..e, fame, wealth, and power). Tim Walz is “Exhibit A” of Midwest values. Is it possible for someone with the “coastal elite” mindset to even comprehend that the highest “ambition” for an American might be to be a high school teacher that could positively impact the lives of thousands of young people over a 30-year career. Ambition is only meaningful (from my Midwest values framework) if it’s rooted in community and improving the lives of others.
A final comment, is that I question how many people are in professions where their prospects are really limited by a Midwestern. Perhaps hip hop artists, professional actors, investment bankers, and certain tech professionals. But my guess would be that 90-95% of elite strivers can achieve unlimited success in the Midwest if their goal is something other than wealth, fame, or power.
Midwest College towns offer the one kernel of local success. If Midwesterners can simply allow Ann Arbor, Champaign, Madison, and Columbus to take full advantage of their assets, they could achieve something.
Hi Pete:
I have lived in the Midwest my entire life (60+ years) and never once encountered the negative attitude towards striving or excellence that you describe. I also have worked with dozens of communities in the Midwest and rarely if ever encountered a desire for things to stay the same. In fact, I would argue that both the industrial centers (like Milwaukee, where I live) that were devastated by deindustrialization and the slowly dying small towns that I have worked with in the Midwest have profound recognition of the need for change. This is the least complacent region in my experience.
I have also found no shortage of ambition in my corner of the Midwest. I could cite dozens of compelling examples just from my clients, family, and friends. Is it surprising that the two top executives at the world's most valuable technology company (Microsoft) both have roots in Wisconsin? Or that the head of the world's leading talent agency (CAA) is my classmate and former next-door neighbor. Oprah went to my high school as well. I don't buy the argument that these people moved away because the Midwest culture didn't support their ambition. I'd argue that a core reason for their success is their Midwestern attitude and grounded pragmatism. They may have moved to other cities where opportunities matched their talent, but I don't believe they moved to escape some negative Midwestern "loser" mentality.
I've been intrigued by the extent to which successful leaders of industrial companies in southeast Wisconsin have expanded into other spheres. Wisconsin is arguably (and improbably) the leading state for elite golf venues in the US - an outcome attributable to a plumbing fixture manufacturer (Kohler) deciding that building and operating elite golf courses would aid their identification as a lifestyle brand. Another great example is Husco International, an auto supplier based in the Milwaukee area owned by an Hispanic entrepreneur who over the past 7 years has committed >$150 million to opening 3 charter schools that will eventually serve 3,400 students. My working theory is that successful manufacturers in the Midwest in the era of globalization, have already mastered complex environmental, labor, supply chain challenges in multiple countries. Tackling the problems such as educating disadvantaged children from inner city neighborhoods is a less challenging problem (at least with the right resources).
Two years ago, a Milwaukee developer completed what was at the time the world's tallest mass timber tower (the 25-story Ascent tower). This will be surpassed by the 32-story "The Edison" building scheduled to break ground in October 2024, which in turn may be surpassed by a 55-story mass timber tower proposed by the same developer for another site on the Milwaukee River. Ambition is not lacking in the Midwest, and is not limited to a regional or even national context.